Two State Solution ?
I was listening to two Israeli Knesset members arguing about the "Two State Solution" on TV last night. Most folks just won't admit that the Palestinians are not prepared or able to build a modern, democratic state that could live in peace with a Jewish State of Israel. And yet, even to my ears, the supporter of the Two State Solution seemed to be a "nicer person". She was totally naive but there's something appealing about a dreamer. The problem was that her dream was a self-delusional fantasy. Thinking about that lead me to do today's cartoon.
Labels: anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism, Incitement, Palestine, Palestinians, Peace, Terrorism, two states
28 Comments:
On your "two state solution"....I think it is good to have dreamers who can visualize how wonderful life could be, as long as we have the practical folks who take care of business as it really is.
Everyone needs to remember we already have a 2 state solution one state is Israel the other is Jordan.
Good one, though I liked better the "twenty four state solution"... :)
Will someone please tell me the alternative solution(s)to the "two state" solution?
Everytime Israel gives up part of her land, she gets attacked with missiles.I am beginning to think that with the USA as her friend she certainly doesn't need anymore enemies!
To anonymous, who asked "Will someone please tell me the alternative solution(s)to the "two state" solution?".
Here's one:
the 24-state solution
The alternative to a two-state solution is autonomy. That and relocating the Gazans to a strip in Sinai. It could be two to three times the present area, and the Arab states can easily bankroll it.
They could have their own citizenship, and any Arab from Judea and Samaria would be free to settle there.
The alternative to the 2 State solution is... The 2 state solution to be created by Israel and Jordan redrawing their border and incorporating within each of these two existing states such parts of the West Bank as they agree shall be annexed by them in direct negotiations. Two peoples need two States not three.
While I fully support "The Jordan Option" since Jordan was/is the largest portion of the British "Mandate for Palestine", President Herbert Hoover had another solution, which can be read here: http://www.jewishmag.com/84mag/humanitarian/humanitarian.htm
Especially this part:
"What Hoover proposed was "that Iraq be made the scene of resettlement of the Arabs from Palestine" and this for their immediate relief and long-term benefit. Unlike current proposals for mass, forced transfer, there was an implicit assumption that this one would be totally voluntary.
By 1949, with the creation of half a million Palestinian refugees, Hoover's plan took on special urgency. He wrote the White House that "they are in a deplorable condition," and they can be absorbed in Iraq. "It would give permanent solution to the problem of these unfortunate people," Hoover said. He also said his plan "would strengthen the economy of Iraq."
SO - forget Sinai - there is PLENTY of room in both Jordan & Iraq for resettlement of Arabs who are either originally from those areas or nearby (Syria). With the right sort of infrastructure and determination, they could actually make those deserts bloom....... of course, they'll need our help to do it.
"Iraq be made the scene of resettlement of the Arabs from Palestine"
Now that really is a fantasy. There is no way the Iraqis would allow the immigration of a million Palestinians.
I completely disagree... I think the ONLY option is for both parties to live together... First: if we go back in history, the homeland natives of that land are the "palestinian nomads" who used to live in that land in the 1917's... and then the whole problem occurred when the Jews have moved in, built and army and tried to take over the land.... if they hadn't tried to make it THEIR land, everyone would have had peacefully lived together just like the Chinese have immigrated in large numbers to Singapore (did not try to get an army with them) and now they are all just Singaporeans (in other words they became part of the society)... So back to the main issue, if the jews don't stop to use their forces against the arabs in Palestine, and if they don't make peace with the fact that they will have to live with them, this will NEVER end until a world war occurs. and I am not sure about you, but I would do anything in my power for that not to happen.
Marc,
You must be from Fantasy Island as well? There is a gaping hole of logic missing in your comparison. The Chinese immigrants arrived in Singapore unarmed, so did immigrating Jews arrive unarmed, the glaring difference which you left out is that the Arabs began killing, raping, and robbing Jews. That was the catalyst for arming themselves. The Arabs never accepted the Jews as neighbors no matter how much of an improvement the Jews brought to their standard of living. Jews have been forced to become warriors by the intolerant actions of Arab Muslims. Violent hate groups arose out of the deep South, the KKK when blacks were emancipated. Violent hate groups arose in the land of Israel, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.., when Jews were emancipated. Islamic law forbids non-Muslims from being equals. I suggest you focus your anger on the part that is unable to change. The Jews just want to be left in peace, but are prepared to defend themselves if their neighbors refuse to offer it.
Michael
As Jimmy Carter predicted
and said "Israel will never
have peace until it leaves the
occupied territories." Now I and
many fellow Americans support
the State of Israel, we do not
support our government's policy
of supporting Israel's need to
settle and drive Palestinian's
out of the West Bank.
Do not misconstrue American
support as supporting this
disastrous policy. We don't and
I believe it is much cause of
anti-Americanism world wide --
b/c of our continued, unabashed
support for this disastrous US
Middle East Policy of pushing
Palestinians out of the West Bank
and the settlement by racist
Jewish settlers.
Many Americans realize this
now (thanks to the power of the
internet) and this in turn has
started to change the opinions
of many about what is happening
in the Middle East.
Hi Yaakov,
The cartoon is as always "perfect."
I am an American Jew and ask you to forgive the actions of the man that is setting in the White House, thinking he has the solutions to every ill situation in the world. He does not speak for everyone here in the US. Personally, I like the 2 state solution of "anonymous" the other state being Jordan. However, they would have to act like other civilized humans if they were allowed to immigrate and Hamas would have to stop making rockets,digging tunnels and get real jobs. Whatever, you do please do not send them here! I will go sign the petition and give the link to all my friends.
Shalom,
Geketa
There are many un-facts in those posts such as only nomads lived in 1900's land of Palestine ... Muslim Arabs (Palestinians) killed, raped and fought Jews ... etc but the fact of the matter is
Jews can not and will not be able to live in their own state without the Arabs because Arabs are their and they are supposedly full citizens of the secular state of Israel. In addition, they are increasing in numbers. Demographic time bomb. Indeed, it is. Google it and you will find sources that say, it is a doomed cause.
What about a one-state solution democratic. I don't think the Zionist movement have envisioned that, have they. Ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians will not work either any more. It happened twice and that is about it.
There will be no more ethnic cleansing that the rest of the world would tolerate and accept.
BTW : I am an Arab but who cares :-) thanks for the Cartoons.
A few responses to some of the comments:
Marc, you are wrong. The "homeland natives" of the land are the Jews who established the only viable permanent states (during the commonwealth periods) and were exiled (but never gave up their rights to the land). The idea of the Palestinian Arabs being the natives of the land has been debunked by many sources such as Joan Peters' "From Time Immemorial," which details the fallacies of the present misconception.
Anonymous (referencing Jimmy Carter), Israel would not have peace even if it left the "occupied" territories. The departures from Lebanon and Gaza prove this. The "settlers" are not "racist"; but I wonder if this adjective could better be applied to the Arabs who believe that they are the superior race and believe that the land belongs to them solely because they may have lived there sometime in the past. Who is not willing to live with whom?
Anonymous (who references "non-facts"), have you read accounts such as Mark Twain's from the
1800's? Maybe you are the purveyor of non-facts. First, at least Arabs have some rights in Israel; that cannot be said for Jews in Arab lands. Second, the "demographic time bomb" is a myth that has been debunked in various sources. Third, there are 22 other Arab lands; why are you begrudging one Jewish land (and have you even considered why the Jews want this particular land)? You know well that the one-state "democratic" solution won't work; it will destroy the Jewish state as we know it. It would be better to recognize that the creation of Trans-Jordan may have provided your Palestinian Arab state, and maybe it would be better for all concerned if the Palestinians recognized that and left the Jewish state in peace. (Or, if they chose to live there, recognize that they have rights but they are a minority there, just as Jews were a minority in the various Arab states they lived in.)
Sadly, I cannot see a real "two-state solution" (unless we count Jordan as one of the states) unless the Arabs as well as Palestinians allow us to live in Israel in peace, and if they hate us so much, leave us alone.
Well Sheldan don't get so angry, this is a friendly discussion and a difference in opinion.
we might disagree but that doesn't mean I am wrong... we are two different people who think in two different ways because we were told history from two different prospectives (none of which is totally right). Each of us sees what he is looking for when we look at the problem, and i can not say that i am not bias but neither can you :) anyway we could still find some common grounds... neither of us disagree that the current situation is a PROBLEM and we need to find a SOLUTION. having one country with only either palestinians or jews is very unlikely to happen. I honestly believe in a state where arabs and jews live together in a country with no armies... and i will admit it, I am a dreamer but i am not naive. The naive is the one who thinks that the jews could live alone in a state, in the middle of the arabs, isolating their selves from the outside world with a high wall... The arabs are yet un-united, but in the next generation of presidents no one knows what their ideologies would be... I might not know of a perfect detailed plan for a solution, but I know that the killing that is happening nowadays by both parties will result in nothing but more angry people all over the place who one day they will unite to create a disastrous war... believe me I am just worried my son will be taken to fight in that war
Reluctantly I support the TWO-STATE-SOLUTION.
In the 20s , 78 per cent of Palestine/Land of Israel was stolen by the UK to give the Arabs a separate homeland: they finally called it Jordan. The two-state solution became a fact.
There is absolutely no need to redived the raiming 23 percent of OUR land in order to give the same families and clans still another vote in the UN. In any case the Arab nation already has 22 states with 22 votes. They are all Arabs, almost all Moslems. The call themselves one nation. The Arab residents of Israel can either go accross the River Jordan to the state of Jordan or go to any of the other Arab countries. The Jews have only one state and a tiny one at that. To secimate it further would render it very vulnerable to enemy conquest - which is what the Arab ststes have been promising for many years.
Israel MUST NOT be weakened by giving away still more land. Nor has it the authority to give away the Jewish heritage. Also, in not ONE arabs state are Jews alowed to immigrate and live there.
Fantasyland indeed! :) The main thing many people keep missing is this: the "conflict" over Israel is a spiritual one, with Satan desiring to destroy the Jews so he can stop the return of Messiah and thwart G-d's end-game plan of redemption and judgment. There is NO SUCH THING as a "palestinian". Brief history lesson: CE 70, Roman legions completely destroy Jerusalem. After this, after having a "guts full" of Jewish "rebellion", the Romans rename Israel "Palestinia" in "honor" of Israel's most fierce and vile enemy, the Philistines (which is what the word Palestinia means). Forward many hundreds of years (mid 1900's), and the Ishmaelites (which is really what most "Arabs" are), find it convenient to refer to a sub-group of their own kind as "palestinians" so as to give them a spring-board against the Jews, claiming that since Israel is "really" "palestine", therefore the Ishmaelites who squatted on Israeli soil for 1800+ years must be "palestinians" and therefore must be the "true" owners of the land etc etc. The Ishmaelites were given a big chunk of Israel for their "homeland" by the British: it's called Jordan. But the Ishmaelites (let's call them by their true name: bastard descents of Abraham, thrust out from his presence and cut off from his inheritance) don't want a "homeland": they want "no Jews". And even if the Jews were to pack up and be "allowed" to go settle elsewhere outside of the homeland that G-d gave to Abraham and his descendants as a perpetual inheritance (which would be a sin), the Muslim Ishmaelites and their "father" Satan would still hound them, as Satan desires the COMPLETE destruction of the Jews, not just a large portion like Hitler's "final solution".
Without these perspectives, one simply gets bogged down in the "we were here first" or "we have bigger armies than you" or "we have the UN in our pocket" arguments between Israel and the Ishmaelite (Arab) world.
There will NEVER come a day when Abu Mazen (terrorist) or Mashaal (terrorist) or Abdullah (supporter of terrorists) or Ahmadinejad (Hitler II) or Assad (supporter of terrorists AND Hitler II) will allow the co-existence of Israel and themselves / their canon-fodder. They can't: their master Satan demands that they lie, steal, cheat and kill. G-d revealed that such would be the sons of Ishmael: a "wild donkey of a man" and "his hand against his brothers, and his brothers hands against him". And let's not forget the curse pronounced by G-d on people desiring to divide His land that He gave to Israel!
Marc,
If people like you and the anonymous Arab get their way Jews will be banned from their ancestral homeland. There are none living in Gaza, yet still the anonymous Arab whines about the supposed ethnic cleansing of the land of Israel. Most of the Muslim world does not even recognize Israel as a state. Funny your sort accepts ethnic cleansing all over the ME but shed crocodile tears when the Jews, might, just might have to take action they would not normally agree with to keep their children safe from barbaric religious supremacists...the Muslims. The fantasy situation you wish for is pie in the sky thinking. Nobody with children being threatened would even allow this thought to enter their mind until the threat disappeared. So if your thing is peace, I suggest you talk to the Arab side and stop making yourself look foolish in a public forum. I suggest you start by listening to what Islam teaches. I am not a scholar so I rely on what their scholars say. Peace is impossible with the Jews in any other role outside of oppression of the Jews. Jews can live alone in the ME, they have little choice not to and it would change very little except to give the ignorant such as your self more fig leaves to cover naked hatred of Jews with. If you are worried your son may have to go to war my advice to to get your morals and values in order first, being unable to stand against Islamic intolerance will allow the enemy of us all to overwhelm us one at a time. The more they see weak wills and spineless appeasement the more they will be likely to strike.
Just a warning from a Yank.
Don't trust either America's Secretary of State nor its President. The truth is a very flexible item in their oratory.
Shalom
Brilliant, as usual!
Maybe you should spell it Phantasy Land.
I don't understand people that say "dreamers" about someone who they disagree with, you can call them populists or naive, but democracy was also the thinking of the same kind of naive people, they may be nice or not but i think they are right.
They believe in the good of man kind and that all people are equal, you can disagree but don't call me naive!
"I honestly believe in a state where arabs and jews live together in a country with no armies"
This used to be the case in Iraq, Egypt, and other areas of the Middle East. But the Muslims drove the Jews out of these countries. The same would happen in any state with a Muslim majority.
Isn't Jordan already the Palestinian state?
The King just named his "Palestinian" Son as his successor too!
DoubleTapper
DoubleTapper@gmail.com
DoubleTapper, blogging on Guns Politics Defense from Israel
Isaac and Ishmael will never live together in peace. The land promised Israel by the Lord will be returned to Israel. End of conversation. Whether you believe or not makes no difference to Him. He has said it, it will be, in His time (not ours) and that is it.
God bless the nation of Israel, and God Bless America (what is left of it !)
There's a pro/con article on Debatepedia on the two-state solution. May be useful to this article.
http://wiki.idebate.org/index.php/Debate:_Two-state_solution_to_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict
Home: http://wiki.idebate.org/index.php/Welcome_to_Debatepedia!
Tonie in Mesa, you've no idea what you're talking about.
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