Presbyterian Conference
Presbyterians in America held a week-long conference this past week. The meeting of Christians provided an opportunity for political radicals to continue their campaign against the Biblically-promised rebirth of Israel and the return of "His Chosen People" to "their Promised Land".The story is reported by the NY Sun in a piece headlined:
Presbyterian Church Proposals Could Reopen Wounds With Jews
"At least 19 Jewish organizations, ranging from Americans for Peace Now to the Zionist Organization of America, have spoken out against some of the so-called overtures to be debated at the week long biennial meeting of Presbyterians in America." -moreYour thoughts?
Labels: America, anti-Zionism, Christians, Divestment, Presbyterian, U.S.A.
24 Comments:
My mother (of blessed memory) always warned me;"scratch a goy and you'll find an anti-Semite."
I poo pooed her but life has shown me she was right.
Just proves that despite supposedly enlightened policies and minds of the goyim, the only ones we Jews can rely on is god and other Jews. We truly are alone in this world.
Presbyterian Divestment is just another name for the old Arab boycott! Shameful! SAL
I agree these are not Christians, and just radical political leftist types. Recall that the Religious Right, whatever their motives, attempt as much as they can to support the land of Israel (all of it) as being the homeland, historical and present day, of the Jewish people.
No, Eidel and Avi, you are not right. You can scratch many goyim these days, and so hard that nothing is left but their faithfulness to Israel and the Jewish people. I am one of them and I live in Israel. Jews need to come back to God, but they are not alone, despite the despicable arrogance of the Presbyterian Church.
It is stories like this that make me ashamed to say that I am a Presbyterian. I hope that all those of the Jewish faith realize that the views of the Presbyterian Church USA are certainly NOT the universal view of all Presbyterians. We of the so-called "Bible Belt" Presbyterians do not subscribe to the views of the northern radical churchs in any way. We do not want divestment
in any form, and are firm believers of Genesis 12:3. I may be a "goy" in your estimation, but I most certainly am not an anti-Semite
I think that the editorial today was brilliant in many ways.
I am a Christian. I believe what the TORAH and the prophets say about Israel's right to exist in ALL of the Land of Israel.
I believe that Israel can only rely upon Hashem for their safety and to fulfill the mandate of ALL Jews returning to the Land.
Please remember that I can call myself a sheep(Christian) but if underneath all of the wool I am a wolf then that makes me a wolf(nonbeliever)!
Count me in as another Christian goy who is ashamed of the Presbyterian Divestment nonsense. I've had some issues even with members of my own Baptist church who are at odds with my support of Israel.
Another Baptist heard from: I spent a year in Israel so I could learn Hebrew, and in that time, not once was I threatened by a Jew. My hosts made me feel welcome and secure the whole time, and this was during the first Shalom haGalil. How could I spit in the face of such hospitality? The Presbyterian Conference attendees need to reread Scripture and stop interpreting it in pseudo-spiritualized gnostic fashion.
Climbing off my soapbox now...
How things like this must cause G-d to cry! I'm a Christian, but I'm not this type of Christian.
I've a print of a painting which says a lot. It's called "This is Not My Teaching", and it shows Jesus walking through a Jewish ghetto. Indeed, the abuse of the Jews is NOT what He taught. It is the insecurity of man that causes such horrible teachings.
Israel is Israel...the land of the the Lord G-d who has given it as an inheritance to the children of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. The only people who fit that description are the Jews. We should support His true Chosen.
Sigh! As an active Presbyterian, I can tell you that the article totally ignores how Presbyterian polity works. Basically any member Presbytery can propose an overture to the General Assembly. (Presbyteries are tne fundamental unit of the church. For example, I my church is a member of the Presbytery of Northern New England, and as an Elder of the church I have attended and voted at Presbytery meetings. That is where the name Presbyterian comes from, duh!)
Any Presbytery can send an Overture to General Assembly. What the GA does with most overtures is to send them to a committee to be considered--just like Congress with bills introduced by members, in fact the House of Representatives rules are based on Presbyterian polity. Also just like in Congress, where a bill is sent for consideration is important. This resulted in the misunderstanding in 2004. Sending the overture on divestiture to the Investment Committee was equivalent to dropping it.
If an Overture is sent to a committee which will send a (possibly modified) version of the overture back to GA as a change to the Book of Order, then the vote in GA is actually on the issue, not a procedural vote. Of course, since the GA meets every two years, that occurs at the earliest two years later. The net result, as intended, is that issues of the day come and go, and never get to an up-and-down GA vote.
Sorry this has gone on so long, but it is necessary to understand what is going on. Are there a few Presbyteries with a majority of extremely "liberal", but pro-Palestinian churches? Yes. Do their overture ever go very far at GA? No. But those same few churches consider it a victory when they get one of their overtures through the local Presbytery and sent to GA. They send out press releases, and the rest of us have to deal with the bad press.
Also realize that churches vary widely in size, but whether a church has 20 members or 20,000 it gets the same number of votes in Presbytery meetings. So although these people are a small minority of PC(USA) they can and do make a lot of noise. There are other Presbyterian denominations in the United States as well, but the press seems to ignore them.
There are many "nominal Christians", that like secular Jews, find their remarks, when it fits an agenda of a fifth colmun inch of fifth columnists, repeated.
My take on the news item is that someone or several someones don't have a really solid scriptural basis for trying to make peace between Philistines that prophetically are always going to oppose Israel. This isn't, as Bones has observed in past remarks, New Testament prophecy, but the words written by Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel and others.
I've observed that there are folks that seem to think that the Commandments are a Chinese menu, this group appears to be another
What eidel and avi posted above, above goys being unreliable as allies, is quite untrue on an *individual basis*. I'm a post-Christian goy (even a neo-gnostic) and I'm 100% behind Israel. I would lay down my life for Israel if I thought it would really help. However, what eidel and avi have said is sadly quite true on a *group basis*. The major non-Jewish groups that could be and should be defending Israel are just not doing it. They include the UN and the EU but also the US. Bush, I think, remains personally loyal but Rice has sold out and the polls indicate that the US people at large will vote in Obama who will surely not defend Israel.
I was moved to tears when I recently read Hillel Halkin's "Israel's Lonely Last Resort", moved because I just know he's not exaggerating. In political terms, Israel is alone and I can but pray that she has the strength to get through all this alone. It is not a hopeless prayer but it is a deeply shameful one.
i am a christian and fully believe that these people in your comic strip are wrong. God never recalled his covenant with the jews, and promised Israel (the land allotted to jews) as an everlasting possession. any way heres one Christian saying keep on fighting the good fight.
bill
To our Jewish Friends.. Hang in there... G-D is not finished with us Goyim Yet.. And Thanks Be to G-D that many of our Jewish friends have invested in us to teach us of our crimes against G-D's chosen people... To our Presbyterian friends.. I invite you to join us in Kansas City, for our future events.. Below was our big event
a day of repentence to beg G-D to forgive us (Christians) and to also beg his chosen People to forgive us.. We held this at night at a local Synagogue and had about 600 Christian and Jews ... for a night that many will never forget... hopefully it was a beginning of an awakening of all that call theirselves Christian.. And a thread of Hope and a beginning of restoring our Jewish Friends to the place G-D puts you...
Below is a blurp from my e-mail.. This event was extended first as a full page add with many local Pastors and Christian Leaders names printed on the add asking The Jewish community to please join us to help us to beg G-D to forgive us..
Christian and Jewish Reconciliation
Tuesday, May 13, 2008 7:00 pm at KI Synagogue
Ministries of New Life is having this event at KI. The goal of the event is to "restore the breach between Christians and the Jewish people, created by centuries of cruelty to the Jewish people through the Crusades, forced conversions, expulsions and annihilation . . . and Kansas City has been called to lead the way," said Marilyn Griffin, founder of Ministries of New Life.
Please rsvp for this event at http://www.ministriesofnewlife.com/rsvp_for_repentance_meeting.htm
http://www.ministriesofnewlife.com/
I am very sure Marilyn would be happy to share with any group how to host this in your state! If you want a more Jewish view.. The Jewish Chronicle wrote an article on it I believe.....
Dear reader,
A razor sharp cartoon about the real intentions
of the European churches.
Nothing has changed since 1933 - 1945.
Churches didn't like the Jews since Anno Domini.
Churches thought the Jews did not play a part
anymore in God's history since Anno Domini.
Churches thought they became the leading actor
in God's history on earth.
Churches thought Jews had to vanish from earth,
because the Jews had been replaced by the Church.
And there should not be a place anymore for the Jews.
Churches did not utter any protests against
the fascist termination machine, who did
what churches thought.
1948 was a historical year in God's agenda.
Churches became second rate players.
Churches did not learn in sixty years : 1948 - 2008.
Churches don't understand that the Head of the Church :
that Jew from Anno Domini,
is nowadays busy in Israel.
He went with His Folks from Europe to Israel.
The Head of the Church has been 2000 years
with His Folks. He never replaced the Jews.
He's coming back in Yerushalayim within
eight, nine years.
The European Churches, without Head,
are becoming angry. And we see the
political radicals nowadays in the Church.
That Church has become the Left Church,
in two meanings :
1. Left >< Right
The Left Church is not anymore a right, honest church.
The Left Church has become a villainous Church ...
2. Left in the sense of leaving behind.
The Left Church is an orphan Church,
a Church without His Head : the Jew Yahushuah
(Greek : Jesus).
The Left Church has inherited that anti-Semitism.
Has become Israel's enemy, God's enemy,
Torah's enemy.
And that's what we see in this razor sharp cartoon.
Yours,
Shalom,
Hans, christianzionist
Jews like Eidel and Avi need to read just a bit of the New Testament to learn that the Church is like a loaf of bread with yeast (sin) in it which will infect the whole loaf. The Church is like a mustard "tree" (?) in whose branches black birds (messengers of satan) roost. These are the words of Jesus himself.
The Bible (New T agrees with Old T) specifically says that God has chosen Abraham-Isaac-Jacob's descendants to carry out His plan of salvation to the entire earth. They also would administrate (rule) it all.
The land of Israel does not belong to Israel, but to God Himself. BUT He has sworn an oath to Abraham that his seed (through Isaac and Jacob) would inherit it OLAM (forever). Though they would be kicked out (Deut. 28), they ever would return till Messiah came, and from then on, there would nevermore be any ouster.
I believe the Bible, and therefore I am 100% pro-Israel, including that they should occupy and control Israel (which according to Ezekiel, is to extend up into Lebanon and across to the Euphrates River; and to include Ammon, Moab, and Edom (Transjordan) which Benjamin is to possess.
God said it, I believe it, and that settles it. Let Israel not forget whose courtyard the outermost of the Temple is; God surely did not create it to be uninhabited!
May I one day enjoy the privilege of being listed in Yad Vashem as a "righteous goy". But don't trust every animal with wool. Some is only glued on. :-)
Not all Protestants are like the presbyterian's. My church firmly believes the Bible to be the inerrant word of the Lord, and thus expect the Lord to fulfill the last 2 sentences in Amos the prophet says that Israel shall be established forever.
And i appreciate the Jews, because i know that the number of Nobel Prizes in Medicine that has been rewarded to Jewish people has been at least 48. So i want to express my appreciation and love for Israel.
Also don't worry because the prophets has said that persia [iran]will be destroyed when as an ally with the land of the utter most north [russia] invades Israel from the north and the LORD will use earthquakes, hailstones to destroy this alliance against Israel. Also the LORD will cause that alliance to fight among themselves to add to the slaying of these enemies of Israel.
i am one gentile who does love Isrel.
i am sorry for a second posting
But i want to let my Jewish friends here know that the Lord has said in the Bible that Israel willl have their third temple by a 7 year treaty made possible by a man that comes with a platform of peace. DO NOT TRUST THAT MAN, because the Bible says that 3 and a half years after making that treaty he will go into Israel's temple and declare himself to be "god". i think it is the prophet Daniel who said something like this individual will have an alliance with 10 kings of which he will overthrow 3 kings. Also Daniel said of that individual that he will have a mouth that blasphemes the GOD of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Also it says that this individula will have an attempt on his life of which he will survive. This individual will also have another individual as his ally who be religious and demand that everyone on earth worship the person who will make the treaty that allows Israel to have their third temple. In addition the Bible says that all individuals who worship the statue will recieve a mark on their bodies and with out that mark you cannot buy or sell and those who doesn't recieve this mark will also be objects of a killing spree.
In addition the prophet Zechariah has said that when the Messiah comes he will split the Mount of Olives into two parts going east to west so that people may take shelter from what the Messiah will do to Israels enemies it talks about in Zechariah [this will be distinct from the invasion from the north that i mentioned included iran].
This is all i can remember of what i learned right now - but i just wanted to warn the Jews about that individual who will make it possible for the third temple because he is not the Messiah.
One final thing i want to say - because i am friendly with Israel. In ancient Israel at least once i think was mentioned in prophet Isaiah that Israel sent its army against the enemy singing Praise to the Lord and the Lord destroyed the enemy by thier fighting and the enemy killing each other. My idea is that it would help Israel when its army goes against hamas and hezbollah to sing praises to the Lord like they did as recorded in Isaiah.
thank you for being patient with me and reading this because i feel i am doing something to help Israel if only someone would at least consider what i have said.
stanley
CUFI.org
For those of us who actually follow Yeshua's teachings, betrayal of His Jewish brothers and sisters is a disgrace.
Scratch a Semite and you'll find an anti-Goy....
If Avi is waiting for God's help to zionists, forget it. He vetoed your hope in 70 AD, without prophesy of a third temple. So sorry.
A faithful Presbyterian..........
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sorry, those of you supporting fascist Israel are NOT CHRISTIANS
Christians follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Christ threw the money lenders out of the temple and he called them snakes.
Now they make 40percent of Federal government positions. AND YOU SO-CALLED CHRISTIANS ARE THEIR SLAVES.
YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES AS HUMANS AND AS AMERICANS - BUT YOU ARE NOT CHRISTIANS AND NEVER WILL BE
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